Aussie Childcare Network Forum

Hi everyone,

I am a bit confused with the new under the roof guidelines at the moment. I will walk into the babies room at work and there will be two unqualified staff in the babies room looking after 8 babies and they will have been in there for a few hours before a qualified staff member comes in. And one of the unqualified staff was very new to our centre. Also I will go to work in the mornings and there will be no group leaders out in the playground with 40 plus children, there will be one cert. III qualified in the large yard and the rest of the staff (including the two staff in the toddler playground) will all be unqualified. But I am told that we can do this now as its all about quality for the children. I can't see how a new parent could walk into the centre and see this as quality? Also I seen a staff member who was very young and unqualified put into a room with the preschoolers with 12 by herself (you can have 12 children to one carer, that's the ratio), but she had never worked with the preschoolers before and they were a very challenging group of children so I don't understand how that would be quality of care either. What are everyone's thoughts on the new under the roof guidelines? Does it make the quality of care at your centre better? Do you agree with it?

I have relocated to Victoria and this" Under the roof line" happens all the time down here. Have no idea what it is or means confusing???

this guideline is a nightmare!
i think its this particular allowance that is causing so much chaos and confusion- i saw terrible things recently and when i queried them the response was always linked to this so called guideline- it seems it's up for interpretation and is going very WRONG!!

hey all yes with this under the roof thing is so wrong for the last 6 months i have worked by myself with 2 and a half to 3 years olds some days having 9 and 10 children evn though the ratio is 8 for one carer i found this so stressfull and hard, then ontop of everything doing all the work and paper work myself, in which i had to take home to catch up on ',also with the dynamics of the children i had was wow where do i start lol lets just say this is not quality of care, i felt like it was hard to have a productive program due to tantrums, fighting,nappy changing/toilet training, accidents, on and on, who ever come up with this does not work in a room and never has,

I don't like it one bit having unqualified staff in one area, i find that my workplace its happening as well. We have an upstairs downstairs situation with the babies and toddlers downstairs and the other three rooms upstairs and i find some days there are no qualified staff downstairs and mostly qualified staff upstairs. Or they will let a cert 3 staff member close with an unqualified staff member. I'm hoping our staff roster will change so there is at least one qualified staff member in each area. I wouldn't like to be in a legal situation if something really serious happens with a child.

Hey,

Thank-you everyone for posting under my thread. Smith76 has just brought up a good point - legality. What would happen if a centre got sued for a child having an accident or something went wrong, and it went to court and it became evident that there were unqualified staff left in a room by themselves? Could the Directors and Managers of a centre hide behind the Under the Roof Guidelines and would that be enough to protect them? Or do you think the Director/Manager would try and say that a qualified staff member was in the room instead? When I asked at work if two unqualified staff members could be left in the babies room, the response was: "technically they can do that, but they wouldn't because it wouldn't be quality care." Exactly one week later I see two unqualified staff being left in the babies room by themselves on a regular basis. Interesting to see what would happen if a court case ever arose in this situation...

I have just come across this post while doing some google searching. My centre, in QLD, has just begun implemting this under roof ratio nonsense. I dont understand what the motivation is for people to study their diplomas or degrees when as long as there is SOMEONE in the centre that is qualified it is ok.

I thought room ratios were meant to be decreasing in the future not becoming higher. My nursery group leader had 5 babies by herself and the kindy room leader had 12...and they were not all 3. This is becoming a serious Quality of Care problem. perhaps I have not been given enough info yet? I just dont understand how this is best practice!!

Is it worth contacting the union? Very confused...

It’s pretty pathetic and I believe there is no one else to blame but the government for allowing this to occur. There is no point for us going to the directors or centre owners or even the union to complain because it’s all covered by this “under the roof guideline”. The quality of care and the quality of staff is diminishing from all early childhood centres. It’s getting to a point where it’s too much to deal with. All we want to do is be with the children!

I'd like to add my two cents here. I've been working in child care for awhile now and honestly, for the pitiful $$ I'm earning, I don't think it's even worth the effort to work in child care anymore. Things seem to be going backwards everyday, with silly guidelines coming along to confuse and confound everyone. My employer has recently begun using 'under the roof' and it sounded good at the time, but in practicality, what a nightmare!

Leaving an unqualified staff with even one child is not good quality of care. I've seen lots of relief staff come to work and sit on their bottoms while children nearly kill each other right in front of their eyes. It's the same with unqualified centre staff. It takes them 4-6 months just to get the ropes right. Not everyone has the same capacity to learn and grasp new things. It's unfair to them, it's unfair to the other staff and it's certainly unfair to the parents who expect better.

Since I'm in WA, the system is quite backwards anyway. Regulations haven't been passed yet and the child care industry in itself is a big mess. Parents shouldn't have to worry about their children when they pay so much money for high quality, responsible care. If they knew their child's educator was getting paid as little as $18 per hour and is left with over 10 children at a time to look after while a mountain of paperwork needs to be done at the same time, I doubt if parents will ever leave their children in a day care. I think we need to take action and educate parents about how things really work in the centres. They are the key to the industry's progress, because our distress is nothing to politicians. They just don't care. But when parents get involved, at least somethings will change, because parents consist of the majority of voters anywhere in the world.

Hi Shanki- I think you make some excellent points. I also feel the parents using our services should be made more aware of the state of things in child care centres. There is this wall of silence when ' communicating' with parents- almost like trying to maintain an ' illusion.' I guess those who own / operate centres for profit wouldn't want people to know what really goes on...even in a good centre there are aspects that would surely concern ME as a parent!

I also feel the parents using our services should be made more aware of the state of things in child care centres.

Parents should come on this site and read some of the forums to get an idea on what really goes on in childcare settings. Some of the forums I've read and what happens in some centres are a joke!

I stumbled across this forum after googling "under roof rules" because my daughter is working at a centre that uses these. I was totally appalled by what I read. I own a long day care centre and have been in the field for 25 years. I thought it was a joke when she told me what was going on at her centre, but she told me stories similar to the posts here. I called the regulatory officer who I deal with and she informed me that "certain providers" are abusing the system and these "under roof guidelines " are not as outlined in the regs. Once again the mighty dollar seems to be the focus here, and after working hard all my life to do the right thing by the children, staff and families, it makes me sick to think that some of the largest chains are doing this which clearly contravenes any notion of quality of care or best practice. The regulator I spoke to advised that staff and families need to be proactive and contact their local departmental team to report unsafe and stressful situations. I have a toddler room that has low numbers a couple of days a week and I even avoid leaving the advanced diploma group leader in the room on her own all day. She gets regular visits from the float to allow her to do thoses things you can't do when you're on your own. We clearly aren't making a fortune, but I have always been able to hold my head high in our town, knowing that I we are trying to do the best thing for all stakeholders. My daughter has worked at two centres in the last six months and both were similar to the situations posted. Because she is passionate about her role, she speaks up, which makes the other staff resentful because they either don't know any better, or feel trapped and don't want anyone to rock the boat. I also feel trapped. In an industry trying to improve itself and young people coming in with high hopes, only to find that we talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. For those of you doing the best by the children and families in your centre, I salute you. I only wish your bosses would as well.

Hi everyone - I'm a Family Day Care Educator currently doing Management for my Diploma. This topic is very interesting with regards to trying to do a staff roster!! Can anyone point me to the regulation this ratio guideline comes from? tia

That's the point littlemonkey, there is no regulation that directly relates to this. These centres are using their own "guidelines' and claiming them as regulation. They are using a loophole in the wording somewhere, but according to a source at the department, they are abusing the system and are definitely not meeting quality standards.

Thanks Julie - I've been searching the regs unable to come up with anything like it. It definitely sounds like it is not in the children's best interests or the childcare workers. That's what cc managements need to remember - its about the children.

I have had first hand experience of a lack of quality due to the use of the "under the roof" guidelines. My son was injured at child care - he was under 2 and there were 18 children under 2 years of age with only 3 staff (we are in Qld). I contacted ACECQA / Office of Early Childhood Education and Care. They promptly investigated the incident at the centre. I contacted them to find out the result of their investigation and was told that "on paper" the Director was able to show them that the correct number of staff were working at the time for the amount of children in the centre.

A little background information - I work at the centre (but wasn't present the day my child was injured) and 2 colleagues told me that some staff weren't working directly with the children. These staff were elsewhere within the building.

The Director consistently used the "under the roof" guidelines to work out ratios, stating that as long as he had the correct number of staff working at the time that he was following the regulations. I was not so directly told this by the regulatory authority. Unless I could prove that the staff weren't directly working with the children, that there was nothing they could do.

AFter getting medical advice, my son was diagnosed with concussion, which was left for 6 hours before I picked him up in the afternoon. The regulatory authority said there is nothing they can do and that if I think quality wasn't paramount at the centre then I should move my son elsewhere. Which is what I did.

What I'm trying to say is that this "under the roof" guidelines in working out staff to children ratios in being widely used and unfortunately there's nothing the regulatory authorities can do.

Hi,
I find the hardest part with under the roof guidelines, apart from Rest Time when we have minimum Staff, heaps to do, apart for putting children to sleep and waking up after a short amount of time due to parent requests, that's another topic.
Outside Play in the morning, when Staff are in the rooms trying to set up their rooms or manage paperwork or other issues.
With the minimum Staff outside and lots of children, this I feel is when accidents happen and it would be lovely to have more Staff and to have the time for more personal interactions with the children.
We also have a huge ongoing problem with the set up of Play Experiences set up outside not being supervised and generally not attractive for the children to be encouraged to use these activities appropriately.
If these are set up at all.
Every Staff Meeting we are talked to about this but still remains the same.
We have a very large outside area with the combination of age groups, inside/outside play is offered also.
Another time too before I forget is when we are outside in the afternoon when Home Nappies/Toileting is being done, leaving Staff busy and less Staff to supervise.
Hope that I have not covered to many issues here and my apologies if I have, just worries me greatly.
What suggestions, thoughts do other have.
Many thanks.

Please help me to try and understand this, totally confused, We all work towards the best outcome for children,this must come first. I have been an educator for 25 years in Family Day Care, as of the 1st of January ,we are being reduced to 4 children ,however Centres can use this "under the roof "loophole. Something is very wrong somewhere.

I have just had the worst child experience in 6 years of teaching with Kindy children due to this under the roof policy and lack of support from the Director ...and have quit the Centre after just one week on the job. I am an Early Childhood Teacher and was put in the Kindy room ready to transition the children to Preschool next year. After finding at least 4 very challenging children (to put it lightly)...with my previous training and my major in Special Education it was clear to me that at least 3 of these children had identifiable special needs (spectrum disorders). I was left with 12 children on my own since my third day at the centre....having little idea of policies, having come from a Primary School background. I witnessed children hurting other children deliberately, spitting on other children, throwing food during meal times, throwing blocks/rocks at other children and trashing the room on a constant daily basis. My worry was firstly of the safety of the other children being hurt....and secondly as to how I was to implement an Approved Kindy Program next year with these children coming 5 days a week with the rest of the class...on my own. I asked the Director about Inclusion Support Services and she smugly laughed at me and threw her hands in the air as to say "you have to deal with it yourself". Well, by my fifth day I had made up my mind that this was not my problem and that by next year I would be under tremendous stress trying to teach a program that would be assessed....with no support from the Director. I resigned and have presented my concerns in my resignation to the Area Manager. I would not want my children ever attending a childcare centre that was run this way. I am horrified that this is acceptable practice. Not to mention, as a Registered Teacher, my whole registration could be at risk for my failure to provide a safe learning environment.